Re: Rollo (was Re: Seduction)

["John S. Quarterman" <jsq@quarterman.org>]

>Dear Sinclair,
>
>The Directory of Royal Genealogical Data for Hull University, a more
>reliable source than many, has Richard II married three times. The children
>you list, plus an unnamed daughter appear as born to his marriage to Judith
>of Brittany. The next marriage, to Edith (Margaret) of Denmark shows no
>children. The third wife, Papia of Envermeu has three children posted:
>Mauger of Rouen, Archbishop of Rouen (obviously no children), WIlliam of
>Arques, Count of Arques, and a daughter with her mother's name.

Here's a rather thoughtful web page

 http://sbaldw.home.mindspring.com/hproject/prov/rollo000.htm

that lists one wife for Rollo,
Poppa, with two children, William Longsword and a daughter.  Source
is Dudo of St. Quentin (writing early 11th century).  Apparently
other sources say the daughter was Gerloc or Adele, m. Guillaume
(William) Tęte d'Étoupe, count of Poitou and duke of Aquitaine.

This page also mentions:
``Supposed second wife:

``Gisla, said to be daughter of Charles the Simple, king of France [Dudo,
46-7, 53]. She is unknown in the Frankish sources. The fact that Charles
the Simple's kinsman Charles the Fat had a daughter also named Gisla
who married a Viking (Godefridus) in the ninth century has led to the
natural suspicion that this Gisla is an invention based on the earlier
woman of the name. If she existed at all, there is no reason to believe
that she was a mother of any of Rollo's children.

``Supposed additional child:

``[FEMALE] Cađlin (Kathleen), said by Norse sources to have married a
certain king Beolan, who is otherwise unidentified. As discussed above,
the evidence for her is less than satisfactory.''

This page also notes that the Orkneyinga Saga is the earliest
(12th century, after the Conquest) known source to identify Rollo
with Hrólfr, son of Rognvaldr, jarl of Mřre.

>Yet many sources show Mauger as the father of Waldron. I would like to see
>some valid verification of this. Can anyone help?

This page has no mention of Mauger.

By the way, I don't know why you say:
``Mauger of Rouen, Archbishop of Rouen (obviously no children)''
Why obviously no children?

There are many cases in medieval history of men of the cloth with children.
This happened in at least three ways:
 1) celibacy for priests wasn't as universally required as today;
 2) some supposedly celibate priests had children nonetheless;
 3) and many priests had children *before* they took their vows.

Several popes apparently fit category (2); they tended to refer to
their sons as "nephews".

At least one pope fit category (3) and he proudly acknowledged his
children.  I can dig up a name and a source, if you like.

>Stan

John S. Quarterman <jsq@quarterman.org>

>-----Original Message-----
>From: Sinclair <labehotiere@wanadoo.fr>
>To: sinclair@quarterman.org <sinclair@quarterman.org>
>Date: Tuesday, August 27, 2002 9:17 AM
>Subject: Re: Seduction
>
>
>>Dear Stanley
>>
>>The problem is that  Richard II Duke of Normandy  Born: About 958 A.D,
>>Normandy Married to Judith  Died: 28 August 1027 A.D., l'Abbaye de Fecamp
>>had no child named Mauger.  His children were Adelaide (Judith) of Normandy

[ Excess quotations omitted. ]

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