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Re: Prince Henry Proofs
The Normans In Sicily by John Julius Norwich is 793 pages long. There are a
few pages in one chapter that discusses their meeting, her background,
Roger's deep love for Judith and their marriage. There is one page with one
chart that lists Judith as his 1st wife (1061) and 2nd wife, Eremberga, was
d/o William of Mortain and there was a third wife, Adelaide (1086 when Roger
was nearing 60 years) d/o Manfred of Savona.(no dates for Eremnberga)
I am surprised that you would think anyone, even if they didn't know these
facts, would jump to the conclusion that this book about Normans in Sicily,
is mainly about the St. Clairs? I don't care one way or another about all
You are the one that told me about William the Warling being the s/o Mauger
Count of Mortain & Corbeil and also a younger brother to Hamo and Walderne.
I "emphatically" stated it because you told me so." By some accounts, both
Hamo and Walderne were killed at the Battle of Val-es-Dunes (I know you
believe that Walderne lived. I have not seen references or proof either
way-but let's stick to one subject). Therefore for a brief period the title
of Count of Mortain rested on William the Warling's head--assuming Mauger
the father was dead. Then Duke William gave that title to his 1/2 brother
from then known as Robert of Mortain, and exiled William the Warling.
Pg. 25 "William the Conqueror" by David C. Douglas
"About 1027, there was established in the extreme west of the province a
certain Count Robert, who was very probably one of Duke Richard I's
bastards: he may well have been count of Mortain as was certainly William
Werlenc, who was possibly his son and survived until after 1050"
Pg. 99 same book
"It may, therefore, be regarded as a sign of the growing strength of the
duke that in 1055 or 1056 he was able very summarily to disinherit William
Warlenc, count of Mortain, and to establish in that comte' his own
half-brother Robert, ...."
pg. 138 same book
After (Duke) William's accession this in fact took shape with the rebellion
of William, count of Arques, but with his forfeiture in 1054 the solidarity
of the group was re-established, and it was further strengthened when in, or
shortly after 1055, Duke William found himself strong enough to dispossess
William Werlenc, count of Mortain, apparently upon a very flimsy excuse, and
to set up in his place his own half-brother Robert...."
As you can see from this, the author believed that maybe William Warlenc's
father was named Robert a bastard of Duke Richard I. Notice the
uncertainty. But you, Philippe, told me William Werlenc (the Warling) was
the s/o Mauger and brother to Hamo and Walderne which linked him to the St.
Clairs sur Elle. Figuring out the ages of people, William the Warlenc could
have been the son of either Mauger the older uncle or Mauger the Younger s/o
Duke Richard II. You see I am not emotionally attached to either
Here is my proof to back up that statement based on the date of about 1028
for the birth of William the Seemly 2nd son of Walderne we look at Mauger
the older first.
Step: 1 Assuming that Walderne had William the Seemly when he was 20,
Walderne was born about 1008
Step: 2 Then brother, William the Warling, was born about 1010. There
could have been sisters, unlisted dead children in between of course.
Step: 3 then in about 20 years (1030) he starts having kids. Saying
that Eremberga is one of his younger children (he could have had a couple of
wives and spread out the kids quite aways but say she was the 10th child)
and born 1050.
Step: 4 When she is 20 she marries Count Roger 1070. It could even
have been her second marriage.
Now we consider Mauger the Younger as the ancestor instead of his Uncle
Mauger as presented above:
Step 1 To establish the probable age of Mauger the Younger: Niven
maintains that he was born after his brother (or 1/2 brother) Duke Robert
the Devil, father of Duke William (the Conqueror). The date of 1027 is
fairly well accepted for the birth of Duke William. His father was a
teenager when he was born maybe 1027-17 =1010 so we could give Mauger the
Younger the birthdate of 1012 if no sisters were born in between which would
make him younger yet.
Step 2 Mauger the Younger then has Hamo when Mauger is maybe18 years old
which would be 18+1012 =1030; then Walderne in 1032; and William the Warling
Step 3: William the Warling has children at about age 20 Thus 20+1034
=1054. If we use the best situation, we will make Eremberga the first child
born around 1052 and marries at age 16 =1070
It is even conceivable that even though William no longer had the
title, it stuck with him when the records were made up for the marriage of
his daughter to give her some status in the eyes of the people.
So you see dear readers, there are many theories floating around, many
with half documentation, including my entries and the theories of others.
Until good hard double evidence as genealogist require, is ever found, I
believe all the early history has to be told with qualifiers like: maybe,
perhaps, it seems probable, etc., and no one should act like they have the
only correct story. So now I will add some qualifiers to the information.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sinclair" <email@example.com>
Sent: Friday, January 18, 2002 1:08 AM
Subject: Re: Prince Henry Proofs
> Emotional involvement... states emphatically that 1062 "The Great Count
> de Hauteville marries Judith of Evreaux d/o first cousin of William the
> Conqueror at Calabria, Italy William is related to the St. Clairs sur
[ Excess quotations omitted. ]
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