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Re: Prince & Jarl

>John wrote " As previously mentioned, the Counts of Oldenburg were princes
>of the Holy Roman Empire, and the County of Oldenburg was a possession of
>the  Dukes of Oldenburg, so if Henry was the Duke of Oldenburg, he was a
>Prince, which would resolve that discussion. "

And in the previous mention I gave my source:

>>According to the Catholic Encyclopedia entry about Oldenburg:
>>``in 1181, the counts of Oldenburg obtained the rights of
>>princes of the Empire''
>> http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11237b.htm

So, we seem to have conflicting sources.  I've got somebody looking
for a third source.

Meanwhile, the above article is attributed to:

Transcribed by Douglas J. Potter
Dedicated to the Immaculate Heart of the Blessed Virgin Mary''

and it cites its sources as:

``VON HALEM, Geschichte von Oldenburg (3 vols., Oldenburg, 1794-96);
RUNDE, Oldenburger Chronik. (3rd ed,, Oldenburg, 1863); NIEMANN, Das
oldenburgische Münsterland in seiner geschichtlichen Entwicklung (2
vols., Oldenburg, 1889-91); SCHAUENBURG, Hundert Jahre oldenburgischer
Kirchengeschichte 1573-1667 (3 vols., Oldenburg, 1895-1900), Protestant;
WILLOH, Geschichte der Kath. Pfarreien im Herzogtum Oldenburg (5 vols.,
Cologne, 1898-99); PLEITNER, Oldenburg im 19. Jahrhundert (2 vols,,
Oldenburg, 1899-1900); IDEM, Oldenburgisches Quellenbuch (Oldenburg,
1903); SELLO, Alt-Oldenburg (Oldenburg, 1903).''

Does anyone have access to any of those sources?

This is all somewhat moot, of course, because no one has produced any
evidence that Henry St. Clair was actually Duke of Oldenburg.  But you
never know; such evidence might turn up in one of those sources.


PS: Note that the palatinate of the Rhine that you cite as having
hereditary princely rank is the same place I previously noted as being
the fief of a mere count who nonetheless had princely rank.

>Dukes of Odenburg were not Princes of the Holy Roman Empire until 1474.
>Princely rank (Fürstenstand) was associated with the most important of the
>Imperial fiefs (archbishopics, bishopics, duchies, markgraviates, etc).
>There were several original hereditary fiefs in Germany with the Princely
>- the duchy of Bavaria, - the duchy of Saxony,- the duchy of Lorraine, - the
>duchy of Swabia, - the palatinate of the Rhine,  - the palatinate of
>Saxony, - the duchy of Austria, - the duchy of Styria,- the duchy of
>Carinthia, - the duchy (then the kingdom) of Bohemia, - the duchy of
>Brabant,  - the county of Anhalt,  - the landgraviate of Thuringia, - the
>markgraviate of Brandenburg, - the markgraviate of Misnia (Meissen),  - the

[ Excess quotations omitted. ]

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