Re: For Glen Cook, demise of the Templars???

["John S. Quarterman" <jsq@quarterman.org>]

Tim,

So, let's see, on the one hand, you assert:

>1) the original order was, under papal, orders, supressed and disibanded and
>its surviving members pensioned off.

And on the other hand you refuse to accept evidence from the same
organization that suppressed the Templars as to what that organization
did with the remnants of the order in Portugal and Aragon.

If the papal bull blessing the Knights of Christ in Portugal is not
a valid primary source, why should the papal bull suppressing the
Templars be a valid primary source?

In other words, if evidence from the Catholic Church as to what it did
with one of its own organizational units is unacceptable,
why believe that the Templar order was ever disbanded?

>May I suggest you read the evidence accepted at the trial of the Templars.
>If you accept the RC encyclopaedia as a valid historical source rather than
>as propaganda, then what of the evidence at the trial?

What of it?  Whether evidence accepted at trials was valid or not is
irrelevant to evidence as to what the pope chose to do about it.

>Was it even remotely likely that any pope would allow the continuence of an
>order whose members had admitted homsexuality; spitting on the coss;profane
>kisses on initiation; veneration of Baphomet and denial of Christ? All
>evidence has to be examined with discernment.

As stated numerous times before, the Templars in Portugal were found innocent.

>Accusing me of not offereing evidence when the source you quote in support
>of a continuation is of such dubious origins, is hardly reasonable or just
>
>Have I not repeatedly asked, begged and pleaded for independant, verifiable
>evidence for the continuing existence of the order? Has anything other than
>the so-called Charter of Larmenius or blatent modern Catholic propaganda
>been offered?

I didn't propose the Charter of Larmenius as evidence.
No one but you has characterized the Catholic Encyclopedia as
"blatent[sic] modern Catholic propaganda."

> Frankly no.

Well, let's follow a recent recommendation by a list member:

``His 'Dungeon, Fire and Sword' is, quite frankly, superb.''
 --Tim Wallace-Murphy

Referring to:
 Dungeon, Fire and Sword: The Knights Templar in the Crusades,
 by John Robinson.

In the last chapter of that book, Legacy, second paragraph:

 ``In Portugal, King Denis I took both men and properties of the Templars
 into a new secular order called the Militia of Jesus Christ (or, more
 popularly, the Knights of Christ) responsible directly to the king
 In 1319 the order received the papal blessing of John XXII, who
 recognized it as a revival of the Knights Templar.  Its most famous
 members were Prince Henry the Navigator and Vasco da Gama.  The Knights
 of Christ used the distinctive red cross patee worn by the Templars,
 the same cross that artists used to decorate the sails of Columbus's
 ships, the Nin~a, the Pinta, and the Santa Maria.''

John S. Quarterman <jsq@quarterman.org>