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Re: St. Margaret & Freemasonry's Past
Dear Neil, Laurel, and to anyone else who is interested:
I have been following the same process and I too have many friends who are
researching Masonic studies with me.
I would like to have you pass this on to your friend, Neil.
The following message I only sent out a few days ago.
Yours, Jerry Gibbons <email@example.com>
Dear Pierre G. "Pete" Normand, Jr. 33 Degree:
I really enjoy meeting other Masons who share this same interest in finding
out more about our Western Civilization's ancient past.
Are you a member of the (North American Masonic) York Rite bodies?
Your editorial, "An Overview of the Mystery of Rennes-le-Chateau and its
Effect on Masonic-related Writing" from "THE PLUMBLINE", Spring 2000 of the
Scottish Rite Research Society, should be copied and printed in the monthly
"Knights Templar" magazine. I've been wanting to do it myself but what you
have written is
just perfect for the members in these other Masonic bodies to read. Would
you be willing to do this or can I do the foot work for you, myself? I
think our Michigan Grand Lodge "Point to Point" magazine would find it
intesting to reprint as well!
And I am looking forward to your next installment!
Please read my other comments.
On 04-Jun-00, you wrote:
> Dear Jerry: Thank you for the continuing correspondence re:
> Rennes-le-Chateau, etc. Yes, I have visited Rosslyn Chapel (as well as
My Grand Lodge (Michigan) will be going to Rosslyn Chapel in two years. I
wish I could travel to more to these far away places!
>I am fascinated by the whole story and the many
>alleged connections: Templars, Cathars, Jacobites, Stewarts, >Merovingians,
Grails, Shrouds, and Freemasons.
I too have read many many of these books dealing with these same topics.
(I really do not think that any historian from any traditional school will
ever believe and/or lower himself to consider a Scottish/French connection
through the Sinclair family. But how can they turn a blind eye to it?)
I am also buying many old books and other items on <eBay.com> by searching
under the word "templar". A few days ago I received two books written in
French about the Knights Templar in France.
> There is no one connection in all of
> western history that I would rather see proven than the
> Templar-Freemasonry connection. But, until the had proof is laid on the
> table I simply must reject the writings of authors who begin their books
> with the assumption that the proof is evident. Unfortunately, it is not.
What sort of proof do you really need?
First, without going straight away into the book, "The Temple and the Lodge"
you can not ignore John Robinson's thoughts in his book, "Born In Blood" on
page 61 and 62 can you? 376 pages of very good scholarship without even a
picture! John Robinson was a true Medieval Scholar.
Secondly, see pages 14 and 55 of the ROSSLYN CHAPEL booklet by the Earl of
Rosslyn Published by the Rosslyn Chapel Trust in 1997. Where you will see
the evidence carved in stone about a Knights Templar connection with
William St. Clair who's family is well connected to Freemasonry! And then
the famous Westford Knight carving on page 52 and Prince Henry Sinclair.
And then there is, "The Masons and the Rosy Cross" by Robert Brydon. (I had
to send away to Scotland to get these booklets!)
Have you read "Prince Henry Sinclair" by Frederick J. Pohl which was
originally published in 1967? ISBN 1-55109-122-4
The most compelling book complete with pictures, "The Temple and the Lodge"
course you must have read? I understand how you might feel about using
Baigent and Leigh as a good source ... but the pictures alone should give
proof of a Templar-Masonic connection go see the pages of photos between
pages 2 and 3 (#1-#6), pages 66 and 67 (#7 and #10) or pages 145 and 146
Have you read "ROSSLYN" by Tim Wallace-Murphy published in 1999? ISBN
1-86204-493-7 The author is easy to converse with by e-mail and I will
send him a copy of this e-mail so he may contact you about getting a copy
of your Editorial. You should read his book. He has just about to
released another new book about the subject of "Rex Deus". Now this
subject IS getting into an area where I am not at all comfortable.
> I don't believe that academic historians reject these notions "out of
> hand." Rather, I see them asking for the proof and the substantiation that
> they must apply to their profession. They are meticulous, and they must
> be. Because, when new evidence comes to light, and it is published by the
> academic establishment, the reading public must be able to trust it. They
> cannot command that trustworthiness if they "go soft" and start accepting
> all the many conflicting conjectures that come down the pike from the many
> "popular" authors who find Templar fingerprints on everything from the
> Shroud of Turin to U.F.O.s. I personally, believe that there may be a
> Templar connection with the Shroud of Turin.
Yes, I believe there is a connect between the Knights Templar and the Shroud
of Turin, too.
>And reading the conjectures
> and speculations are fun! And I do read them! But I'm disappointed when
> those books don't provide the proof I am so hungry for. I often wonder why
> my fellow Masons are as hungry for the proof as I am, and why they are so
> easily convinced by conjecture.
However, some of this really seems to make sense. I think that "Myth" is a
reflection of an important "Truth".
Consider this... When I read, "The Sign and the Seal" ISBN 0-671-86541-2,
by Graham Hancock, I really thought it was just another great story until I
happened to stumble on a video called, "The Quest for the Lost Ark of the
Covenant" #6529. One of a four volumn set entitled THE HOLY QUEST in search
of Biblical relics, 1996 Newbridge Communications, Inc. (Forget about the
"other" Lost Ark videos this one is the best of the lot!) This video
mirrors the Sign&Seal book. Graham Hancock is in it where he actually
takes you on a tour of Ethiopia and you actually visit the 12th century
rock-hewn church of Saint George at Lalibela in Ethiopia (picture # 29
after page 120) to see on page 120 the Knights Templar "Croix Pattee"
contained within the Star of David written in stone on the ceiling in the
arch. It IS a most amazing story. And one in which you will need to check
out! If you read the book I could make you a copy of the video. The video
probably is not available any longer.
Speaking of videos ...
You must have seen the "Unseen Journey" available from our Knights Templar
Grand Encampment Recorders office? It mirrors "Born In Blood" to a certain
Have you seen "The Templar Legacy" (30 minutes or more) by First City Videos
for the Friends of Rosslyn? Or "Templar Renaissance" (30 minutes) by
> Fraternally, --P. N.
Pierre G. (Pete) Normand Jr., Editor of "The
Plumbline", a quarterly publication of "The Journal of the
Scottish Rite Research Society",
He can be contacted by <PeteNormand@aol.com>
Post Office Box 10434
College Station TX 77842-0434
Regular membership is open to any Scottish Rite Mason in good
standing. Special memberships are available to libraries, lodges,
organizations and persons desiring to receive the publications of the
The Scottish Rite Research Society also publishes a set of books called the
"Heredom" series. New editions (volumns) are written periodically on
various Masonic subjects.
Questions concerning membership should be directed to the Executive
Secretary, Plez A. Transou, Post Office Box 1850, Dallas, TX 75221-1850
Maybe there is a better explanation why these "new" ideas are not accepted
by traditional historians, but I think they are not ready to upset the
status quo and be labeled otherwise. Perhaps, they just can not get out of
Fraternally Yours, -- Jerry Gibbons, 32nd degree and a Knight Templar, too!
(Not to mention the Royal Order of Scotland!)
----------END OF INSERT---------------
On 08-Jun-00, you wrote:
> When it comes to recognizing the great historians of the current century,
> you will be well up there as a communicator and researcher of the
> knowledge of those that came before. Of course I was seeking a context for
> what Rory was sharing, and happened to have a friend who is researching
> masonic studies with me, so this tied into the Sinclairs and as he is also
> a student of Hungarian history, the connection between the Sinclairs and
> Hungary was curious for me and the flag seemed to be a link, which you now
> illustrate that it is in the historical context you assert. I will be
> asking my friend if there are any historical insights from his connections
> in the Universities of Hungary. and share it with you.
> I must say, that while I have been an avid student of all sorts of
> history, what I have come across in this past year is daunting because of
> the depth and breadth of the knowledge which is tied into ancient masonry,
> Sinclairs as the fulcrum of the keeping of the history and passing it
> through and the ancient information in the religions between 2000 BC and
> 1000 AD that are buried in the middle east. Bill Bueler is not off the
> wall in the ancient geometric principlas that became a basis for much
> philosophy, theology and religion to say nothing of the construction of
> the physical world. I am over whelmed this year with all the "more" that
> there is to study just looking at something a simple as one family
> heritage and the social impacts that surrounded it. Your material is worth
> I am so glad that your wisdom is again being communicated. There is so
> much you have. Yours aye;
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Spirit One Email" <firstname.lastname@example.org>
> To: <email@example.com>
> Sent: 8 June, 2000 12:33 AM
> Subject: Re: St. Margaret
>> Dear Neil,
>> Maybe you intended to way that William the Seemly accompanied St.
>> Margaret back from Hungary? I don't mean to jump on to a slip of the
>> finger, we all do it. Here is some new information on the subject that
>> people might not know yet.
>> William the Seemly was born around 1028 in Normandy and was in
>> around 1057. Margaret was born in Hungary in 1046. It was her father and
>> uncle (sons of King Edmund Ironsides) that were forced out of England as
>> tiny babies when Knute conquered England and married Queen Emma, sister
>> our Mauger, Count of Mortain & Corbeil, in 1017.
>> So William the Seemly didn't escort her to Hungary, since she wasn't
>> yet, but it is quite possible he went with the delegation sent by Edward
>> Confessor (s/o Emma) in Sept. 1057 as the king's representative and
>> became the cupbearer of Edward the Exile. It was hoped that Edward the
>> become the heir to Edward the Confessor who was childless but Ed the
>> died as he reached England (very suspicious). William the Seemly's
>> Walderne, was the cousin of Edward the Confessor.
>> Margaret was of no political interest and would have been very
>> unimportant in the whole picture at that time as she was firmly dedicated
>> the church and definitely planned never to marry. It doesn't make sense
>> that this non-person would be entrusted with a piece of the Holy Rood.
>> likely (if it ever happened) it would have been given to her father,
>> the Exile, by his friend King Andrew of Hungary whom Edward and his
>> had helped to regain his throne in Hungary. Also because of the threat of
>> Duke William of Normandy who possessed a Holy relic from the Pope, it
>> make sense to give an important relic such as the Holy Rood to Edward the
>> Exile to provide him with Holy power as King of England. 20 years passed
>> before she married Malcolm Canmore and then it was against her will. King
>> Malcolm threatened the life of her brother, Edgar the Athling, and
>> finally she gave in. (Anglo-Saxon Chronicles) Women were usually wed long
>> before the age of 24 in those days especially a woman
>> her lineage. She was one of the few descendants of the Saxon line of
>> monarchs. Marrying her would have been a strategically good political
>> but it is quite evident that such suitors were kept away because of her
>> religious commitment. So it took real force from King Malcolm to change
>> I993 was the 900th anniversary of the death of Saint Margaret Queen of
>> Scotland. At least two people researched and published books about her
>> life. No where in either of these books is there a mention of the Holy
>> being brought with her from Hungary. Such a fact would not have been
>> overlooked. I have corresponded with another English researcher on
>> Margaret's history who says, " The other serious problem with your legend
>> that Margaret, a girl of about ten in 1057, would hardly have had a
>> Norman knight as cupbearer. Nor is there anything established about a
>> Holy Rood brought by Margaret from Hungary. If your William was indeed
>> Margaret's cupbearer then he must have been appointed upon her marriage
>> to Malcolm Canmore in Scotland."
>> Hope this helps,
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Rory Sinclair <firstname.lastname@example.org>
>> To: <email@example.com>
>> Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2000 10:13 AM
>> Subject: Re: Sinclair Dates & Appreciation
>>> Dear Neil:
>>> I was leaving the field open to Niven but as he seems otherwise
>>> will repeat what I got from him but have seen from no other source (not
>>> I have specifically looked). The engrailed cross, at least in sable
>> has been with the Sinclairs a long time. Niven told me, and I hope I
>> remember correctly, that we Sinclairs obtained the "ragged cross" after
>> William "The Seemly" St. Clair accompanied St. Margaret (later wife of
>> Malcolm Canmore) to Hungary from which she returned with a piece of the
>>> cross which was later enshrined in "Holyrood" (Rood = tree in old
>>> version of which was the language spoken in Lowland Scotland at the
>>> to Hungary circa 1057.
>>> It may be true that a "croix pattee" or templar cross can be made by
>> the very centre of an egrailed cross up to the first 'scallop' away from
>>> whole but if the above be true re: William the Seemly, then the croix
>>> pattee is an anachronism insofar as the Crusades and hence the Templars
>>> appx. 50 years later.
>>> I'd like to get to the bottom of this myself.
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Neil Sinclair/Peggy Rintoul <firstname.lastname@example.org>
>>> To: email@example.com <firstname.lastname@example.org>
>>> Date: Wednesday, June 07, 2000 9:44 AM
>>> Subject: Re: Sinclair Dates & Appreciation
>>>> Dear John;
>>>> Everyday I think of you, and in a most positive way to be sure. When
>> > > share the important dates in history we are connected this day with
>> > > all those days that have gone before, linking the past and present in
>> > > a contextual way. Today I note the anniversary of Robert Bruces
>> > > death, so intimately tied into the family heritage. I applaud you for
>> > > again
>>>> and persistently keeping the shared interests moving forward in a
>>>> direction. Now as for the granting of the Sinclair shield and heraldic
>>>> symbols ...anyone???
>>>> Neil Sinclair
>>>> Toronto/PEI/Forever Argyll
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "John S. Quarterman" <email@example.com>
>>>> To: <firstname.lastname@example.org>
>>>> Sent: 7 June, 2000 3:19 AM
>>>> Subject: Sinclair Dates
>>>>> Sinclair Dates: June 7.
>>>>> In 1329: Robert I the Bruce d., King of Scots dies.
>>>>> Tomorrow: June 8.
>>>>> In 1376: Edward III d.,
>>>>> King of England dies.
>>>>> In 1329: David II, King of Scots
>>>>> In 1042: Harthacnut end,
>>>>> King of England ends reign
>>>>> In 793: Vikings sack Lindisfarne, Beginning of the Viking Age.
>>>>> 1. http://www.mids.org/sinclair/timeline.html
>>>>> 2. http://www.mids.org/sinclair/timeline.html
>>>>> 3. http://www.angelfire.com/de/BobSanders/TIME1.html
>>>>> 4. http://www.angelfire.com/de/BobSanders/TIME1.html
>>>>> [ This is the Sinclair family discussion list, email@example.com
>>>>> [ To get off or on the list, see
>> > >
>> > > [ This is the Sinclair family discussion list, firstname.lastname@example.org [ To
>> > > get off or on the list, see http://www.mids.org/sinclair/list.html
>> > >
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