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Re: Origins of Sinclair Name in Scotland


    I was in error when I said William Warlenc went to Apulia in 1053, it
was 1055-56. As the youngest of 4 sons there was little reason to believe he
would inherit much in Normandy so might have gone in his youth to seek his
fortune.  He may have taken his nephew, William the Seemly, youngest of 3
sons, who also lacked prospects in Normandy.   But I am thinking that maybe
Warlenc (the Warling) got his nickname from previous battles in Apulia.  Now
he came back full of honors and confidence to challenge Duke William.  He
also would have inherited land and a title with the death of his brothers in

    The map that I have must be wrong then because it says that Duke William
the Conqueror was born in the castle at Falaise????
    You only sent me that Mauger the Younger was the 6th Archbishop.  I
didn't know of there were two numberings of Archbishops--- Norman
Archbishops and the total Bishop/Archbishops.
    I don't want to rule out the possibility that the St. Clair name came
with our group and thus the area was named after them and their patron Saint
Clair.  Maybe it is obvious to you from your good background in Norman
history but I would like to pin down the facts of when the places in that
area took on the name St. Clair.  Also I don't want to rule out that St.
Clair sur Elle could have been a previous place of hiding for the same St.
Clair-sur-Epte and thus would have drawn a religious family to settle again
near their patron saint.

    If St. Clair were a title, it would have most likely been bestowed upon
a member of the Duke's family, don't you think?   I think that would be
likely because the Duke's were in the business of promoting their family
members so they could control the little people more easily.  If the title
of St. Clair were given to some other unrelated family, then it would mean
we have lost the connecting thread back to any of the Dukes or even to
Rollo.   If we descended from a family that was not related to the Dukes,
then there would never have been a chance for them to even think they could
become a Duke themselves.  I thought there was a belief that since Duke
Richard II's offspring were not legitimate  (is there really proof on that?)
that the Counts of Normandy preferred to have Count Mauger's son, Hamo/on as
their Duke.  The books that I look at don't seem to consider Mauger's sons
or mention these feelings against Duke Richard II's offspring.  How could
they suddenly get so picky about their ancestry, when this went on all the

 But the book
"William the Conqueror" says that
"Guy of Burgundy was the prime mover of the revolt that led to the battle
Val-es-dunes.  The leaders of Guy's army was Nigel I, vicomte of the
Cotentin, and Rannulf I, vicomte of the Bessin.  They were joined by many
lords from Lower Normandy, and especially by a group of magnates established
in the district of the Cinglais situated between Caen and Falaise.  Among
them were Ralph Tesson, lord of Thury, (now Thury-Harcourt), Gimoald of
Plessis, and Haimo dentatus, lord of Creully, the ancestor of a family later
to be famous in England."  (Haimo the teeth was the s/o Count Mauger and
brother of our Walderne)

    The revolt started when Grimoald of Plessis tried to capture and murder
Duke William who made his famous escape by horseback to his father's Cousin,
Hubert,Count of Rye.  Duke William about 19 years old, then appealed to
King Henry I of France.  Henry considered this also an attack on himself  so
aided Duke William greatly at the Battle of Val-es-dunes otherwise he
probably would never have defeated the rebels.
    Well, if I had my title and lands taken away, I would have considered it
punishment.  That is how it has been represented to me.  That Duke William
had certain relatives that sneered at his illegitimacy which was a volatile
think to mention behind his back or to his face.  So in retaliation he took
William Warlenc's lands and titles away.  Maybe we disagree on the word

 So it seemed safer for William Warlenc to leave Normandy and go as so many
disposed Norman sons, to Apulia where many such men were able to gain new
lands and titles.

At this place in history, is there any chance that this William Warlenc
could have been really our William the Seemly (William de sancto Claro)?  He
would have been 27 years old when William Warlenc left for Apulia.  But it
seems like the title of Count of Mortain would have gone next to his uncle
Hubert of Rye after uncle Hamo and father Walderne died in 1042.
Did Hubert get his title by marriage or given by the Duke?  It didn't seem
to be in the family when his father Count Mauger was living.  Is that true?
Walderne had two sons older than William the Seemly.  Did all the titles
get divided up between them and possibly the title of Count of Mortain went
to William the Seemly?   We don't know anything about what Seemly was doing
from birth 1028 to when he suddenly shows up in 1057. He must have married
(superficially or officially) and maybe had children????

 I bring this up because until about 3 months ago,  William Warlenc was
unknown to me as a son of Count Mauger.  Pete Cummings didn't list him and
neither did the Morrison history.  So we need to figure out whether William
the Seemly and William Warlenc could have been the same persons.

----- Original Message -----
From: Privateers <Privateers@privateers.org>
To: <sinclair@mids.org>
Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 1999 11:56 PM
Subject: Re: Origins of Sinclair Name in Scotland

> Dear Laurel
> William, Duke of Normandy King of England, son of Robert the Devil, was
> in Caen.  If you can look back at my earlier e-mails I have long believed
> that our name comes form the River Elle region but the north eastern
> of Caen is Heroville-St Clair.  Le Bec Hellouin  is 6km from La Behottiere
> in research there indicates that  Mauger   was the 6th Norman Archbishop
> some where between the 18 and 24th Bishop/Archbishop of Rouen.  I still
> believe  St Clair Ian a title and there appears to be six towns/areas
> after the Saint Clair other areas seem to be named after their defenders.
> Apulia was where landless Normans of high birth went to seek there
> it was not a punishment.  Niven often speaks of Sinclair guarding the
> approaches to great cities and productive areas. In the Norman Kingdom of
> the two Scillys the King is quoted by a Muslim historian say of Sinclair
> "These are my immortals, they are feared at the very gates of Hell"
> As ever
> Sinclair
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Spirit One Email <laurel@spiritone.com>
> To: <sinclair@mids.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 1999 6:38 AM
> Subject: Re: Origins of Sinclair Name in Scotland
> > Dear John,
> >     The Sept. 1999 Yours Aye (quarterly of Clan Sinclair USA) contained
> > article about the origin of the Sinclair name.  This article was one of
> the
> > three that former Clan Genealogist, Pete Cummings, had planned to write.
> It
> > seems to me that it is possible that he might have had some new insights
> > into this question since this was on his "to do" list but if that is
> > his notes are still locked in his office and were not available to me
> I
> > undertook to write the article later.
> >
> >     So I went with the fact that the 911 treaty between Rollo the Viking
> and
> > Charles III was signed at St. Clair-sur-Epte.  There was at this place a
> > shrine where people with eye ailments came to be cured.  The next year
> Rollo
> > was baptised in Rouen.  I have yet to find out any definite information
> that
> > Rollo and his descendants hung around Epte very long.  I had thought he
> > might since his new wife was the daughter of King Charles who already
> > some sons.  But if there was any possibility that his wife would bear a
> > child, he might have a chance at the throne. (she didn't)   Did Rollo
> > to keep a close eye on the turmoil of the court?
> >
> > Epte has also been referred to as a gateway to Normandy and that Rollo
> > resided there to protect his territory.
> >     But we tend to think in terms of how we live our lives today.  In
> > house at a time.  But these Counts/Dukes moved from residence to
> > with their slowly growing court.  Those that couldn't be trusted many
> times
> > were forced to join the Lord so that they could be observed at all
> > When the food ran out in one place they would move on to the next,
> > administering, sporting, building, fighting, arranging advantageous
> > marriages for their kin to gradually take control of every office.
> >     Rollo's son, William Ist -Longsword, is mentioned in relation to
> Fecamp
> > and Le Bec Hellouin monastary (over south of Rouen).  King Charles had
> > wanted these Counts/Dukes to protect him from more Viking invasions.  If
> > they remained around Epte, they wouldn't know when the shores were
> attacked.
> > So it seems to me they would have spent more time on the western part of
> > Normandy.
> >     William's son, Richard I was born at Fecamp (on the shore above Le
> > Havre) and he was buried there.  After his father was murdered, Richard
> > now an adult, went (kidnapped?) to the French court.  It was King Louis
> IV's
> > hope that he could rid Richard of his Viking tendencies and even
> > his marriage to the princess.  But after her death he married a Danish
> > settler's daughter and later sent his children to Fecamp to (forgot
> > but along the coast) relearn their Norse heritage and language.   So
> > seems to be a tendancy to cling to the Viking culture of western
> > and avoid the eastern part where St. Clair sur Epte was on the very
> > just a few thousand feet from the French territory.
> >    Richard's many children married various Counts in the western part of
> > Normandy.  His son, our ancestor, Mauger was Count of Mortain and
> > He and his family spent much time at Caen and as with other Counts,
> > from residence to residence.  But if you look at a map you will see that
> > they are now over in the Cotentin Peninsula area of western Normandy.
> >     His brother, Robert was Ct. of Everux which is south of the Seine
> > too far from the Epte flowing northward. Robert was also the 5th
> Archbishop
> > of Rouen, which might mean he spent a lot of time there but maybe not.
> > and his sucessor and nephew, Mauger the Younger, were anything but holy
> and
> > really pretty corrupt.  But that didn't always bother the Dukes since
> their
> > desire was to gain control using their relatives (simony).
> >     Duke Richard 2nd's sister, and sister of Archbishop Robert and Count
> > Mauger, married the King of England.  This was part of the treaty that
> > England hoped that would curtail Richard 2nd's help to the Viking
> of
> > England.  So again this generation of Duke's were there at Rouen or at
> > Fecamp, etc. where they entertained the viking raiders and provided
> markets
> > for their contraband.  Some believed that Duke Richard was the actual
> > chieftan and instigator of the raids.   So again this shows another
> > they were drawn to western Normandy.
> >     Duke William (the conqueror) b. 1027 grandson of Richard 2nd, was
> > at Falaise which is below Caen.
> >     (at this point you might want to visit the History website
> > www.clansinclairusa.org   and look at the Normandy Years chart.
> >
> >     Now William de Sancto Claro was born about 1028 at St. Lo not far
> > Falaise.  He is also known as William the Seemly.  His father Walderne
> > uncle Hamo, sons of Count Mauger, were killed in the battle of
> Val-es-dunes
> > in 1042.  So it is impossible for his father to have fought at Hastings.
> > The title and lands then went to the next brother William Warlenc (the
> > warling).  Who probably shot off his mouth, calling Duke William a
> > "bastard".  Now Will was sensitive about this, consequently, he exiled
> > Warling to Apulia, Italy in 1053 and gave his title of Count of Mortain
> and
> > lands to his (William the Conqueror)'s half brother, Robert.
> >
> >     Now whether Hamo and William Warlenc had children, we don't know but
> > Walderne, Lord St. Clair of St. Lo (SW of Caen) had at least 4 children,
> one
> > of which was William the Seemly (de Santo Claro -Latin name) born at St.
> Lo
> > .  You just have to get use to the idea that these people had multiple
> names
> > that changed with circumstances, marriage, baptism, physical feats, and
> > whatever language you were speaking, etc.  Look at all the names that
> Rollo
> > had.   Now I can't find St. Clair sur Elle on my map but assume it is
> really
> > close to St. Lo.
> >     There were at least 3 other Saint Clairs that had towns named after
> them
> > besides the English St. Clair that Sur Epte was named after.  These
> > lived before Sur Epte's St. Clair.  What I don't know is:  At what date
> did
> > the St. Clair sur Elle take on that name?
> >     Here is another thread of thought:  I think it is possible that
> > St. Clair might have become a symbol in the Dukedom of a great change in
> > their good fortunes.  Possibly someone's eyes improved after washing in
> the
> > well at sur Elle.  I think that the family could have been so associated
> > with this "patron saint" that his name became more and more associated
> with
> > them.  So did they give their name to the town at sur Elle or was it a
> > coincidence that once again they were living at another St. Clair?
> >
> >     I do not believe that William the Seemly (de Sancto Claro) fought at
> > Hastings:  There are several good reasons.  Right now the concensus of
> > opinion, including Niven, is against his involvment.   I cannot comment
> > Yolanda.  I haven't come across her before.  Perhaps Niven knows about
> that.
> >
> > I have another theory about William the Seemly (perhaps two or three
> > unknown facts-and what must there be in Pete's office????) that will be
> > aired in the March YOURS AYE quarterly.
> >
> >    Laurel
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: John Duguid <john.duguid@snl.co.uk>
> > To: sinclair <"sinclair@mids.org"@"sinclair@mids.org">
> > Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 1999 5:31 AM
> > Subject: Origins of Sinclair Name in Scotland
> >
> >
> > > Find below a discussion of the origins of the Sinclair name in
> > this
> > > appeared in another list I sub scribe to. The claim the the Scottish
> > Sinclairs
> > > originate from  St Clair-sur-Epte is one that I have heard from other
> > sources
> > > whom I respect,  but it does not seem to be the one put forward by
> on
> > this
> > > list. Any comments from sub scribers ????
> > >
> > > he following comes from this week's Rampant > Scotland > newsletter
> > > http://www.rampantscotland.com > --------- > Sinclair > The name is
> > derived
> > > from Saint-Clair-sur-Elle in > Normandy. William de Sancto Claro,
> > father
> > > had > come over with William the Conqueror in 1066, came > to Scotland
> > with his
> > > wife. There were, however, other > members of the St. Clair family who
> > came
> > > north also. > They became established near Edinburgh and were >
> > the
> > > barony of Rosslyn. Sir William de St > Clair was involved in
> > the
> > > marriage of  > Yolande de Dreux with King Alexander III. <snip>
> > >
> > > Burke's and Debrett's disagree that William, or Guillaume, was
> > from
> > > the earlier "William de Sancto Claro" who accompanied the Conqueror,
> > from
> > > other Sinclairs in England who migrated north.  They claim that
> Guillaume
> > de
> > > St. Clair belonged to the Norman Seigneurs de St. Clair-sur-Epte, a
> > younger son
> > > who didn't stand to inherit the family manor in Normandy.  He married
> > cousin
> > > of the above-mentioned Yolande de Dreux and did play a part in her
> > pre-nuptial
> > > arrangements, for which he received the manor of Rosslyn from
> > III of
> > > Scotland around 1280.
> > >
> > >  best regards
> > >
> > > John.
> > > [ This is the Sinclair family discussion list, sinclair@mids.org
> > > [ To get off or on the list, see
> >
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