Re: Origins of Sinclair Name in Scotland

["Privateers" <Privateers@privateers.org>]

Dear Laurel

William, Duke of Normandy King of England, son of Robert the Devil, was born
in Caen.  If you can look back at my earlier e-mails I have long believed
that our name comes form the River Elle region but the north eastern region
of Caen is Heroville-St Clair.  Le Bec Hellouin  is 6km from La Behottiere
in research there indicates that  Mauger   was the 6th Norman Archbishop and
some where between the 18 and 24th Bishop/Archbishop of Rouen.  I still
believe  St Clair Ian a title and there appears to be six towns/areas named
after the Saint Clair other areas seem to be named after their defenders.
Apulia was where landless Normans of high birth went to seek there fortunes
it was not a punishment.  Niven often speaks of Sinclair guarding the
approaches to great cities and productive areas. In the Norman Kingdom of
the two Scillys the King is quoted by a Muslim historian say of Sinclair
"These are my immortals, they are feared at the very gates of Hell"

As ever

Sinclair
----- Original Message -----
From: Spirit One Email <laurel@spiritone.com>
To: <sinclair@mids.org>
Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 1999 6:38 AM
Subject: Re: Origins of Sinclair Name in Scotland


> Dear John,
>     The Sept. 1999 Yours Aye (quarterly of Clan Sinclair USA) contained an
> article about the origin of the Sinclair name.  This article was one of
the
> three that former Clan Genealogist, Pete Cummings, had planned to write.
It
> seems to me that it is possible that he might have had some new insights
> into this question since this was on his "to do" list but if that is true,
> his notes are still locked in his office and were not available to me when
I
> undertook to write the article later.
>
>     So I went with the fact that the 911 treaty between Rollo the Viking
and
> Charles III was signed at St. Clair-sur-Epte.  There was at this place a
> shrine where people with eye ailments came to be cured.  The next year
Rollo
> was baptised in Rouen.  I have yet to find out any definite information
that
> Rollo and his descendants hung around Epte very long.  I had thought he
> might since his new wife was the daughter of King Charles who already had
> some sons.  But if there was any possibility that his wife would bear a
> child, he might have a chance at the throne. (she didn't)   Did Rollo want
> to keep a close eye on the turmoil of the court?
>
> Epte has also been referred to as a gateway to Normandy and that Rollo
> resided there to protect his territory.
>     But we tend to think in terms of how we live our lives today.  In one
> house at a time.  But these Counts/Dukes moved from residence to residence
> with their slowly growing court.  Those that couldn't be trusted many
times
> were forced to join the Lord so that they could be observed at all times.
> When the food ran out in one place they would move on to the next,
> administering, sporting, building, fighting, arranging advantageous
> marriages for their kin to gradually take control of every office.
>     Rollo's son, William Ist -Longsword, is mentioned in relation to
Fecamp
> and Le Bec Hellouin monastary (over south of Rouen).  King Charles had
> wanted these Counts/Dukes to protect him from more Viking invasions.  If
> they remained around Epte, they wouldn't know when the shores were
attacked.
> So it seems to me they would have spent more time on the western part of
> Normandy.
>     William's son, Richard I was born at Fecamp (on the shore above Le
> Havre) and he was buried there.  After his father was murdered, Richard I,
> now an adult, went (kidnapped?) to the French court.  It was King Louis
IV's
> hope that he could rid Richard of his Viking tendencies and even arranged
> his marriage to the princess.  But after her death he married a Danish
> settler's daughter and later sent his children to Fecamp to (forgot where
> but along the coast) relearn their Norse heritage and language.   So there
> seems to be a tendancy to cling to the Viking culture of western Normandy
> and avoid the eastern part where St. Clair sur Epte was on the very border
> just a few thousand feet from the French territory.
>    Richard's many children married various Counts in the western part of
> Normandy.  His son, our ancestor, Mauger was Count of Mortain and Corbuel.
> He and his family spent much time at Caen and as with other Counts, moved
> from residence to residence.  But if you look at a map you will see that
> they are now over in the Cotentin Peninsula area of western Normandy.
>     His brother, Robert was Ct. of Everux which is south of the Seine not
> too far from the Epte flowing northward. Robert was also the 5th
Archbishop
> of Rouen, which might mean he spent a lot of time there but maybe not.  He
> and his sucessor and nephew, Mauger the Younger, were anything but holy
and
> really pretty corrupt.  But that didn't always bother the Dukes since
their
> desire was to gain control using their relatives (simony).
>     Duke Richard 2nd's sister, and sister of Archbishop Robert and Count
> Mauger, married the King of England.  This was part of the treaty that
> England hoped that would curtail Richard 2nd's help to the Viking raiders
of
> England.  So again this generation of Duke's were there at Rouen or at
> Fecamp, etc. where they entertained the viking raiders and provided
markets
> for their contraband.  Some believed that Duke Richard was the actual
> chieftan and instigator of the raids.   So again this shows another reason
> they were drawn to western Normandy.
>     Duke William (the conqueror) b. 1027 grandson of Richard 2nd, was born
> at Falaise which is below Caen.
>     (at this point you might want to visit the History website
> www.clansinclairusa.org   and look at the Normandy Years chart.
>
>     Now William de Sancto Claro was born about 1028 at St. Lo not far from
> Falaise.  He is also known as William the Seemly.  His father Walderne and
> uncle Hamo, sons of Count Mauger, were killed in the battle of
Val-es-dunes
> in 1042.  So it is impossible for his father to have fought at Hastings.
> The title and lands then went to the next brother William Warlenc (the
> warling).  Who probably shot off his mouth, calling Duke William a
> "bastard".  Now Will was sensitive about this, consequently, he exiled the
> Warling to Apulia, Italy in 1053 and gave his title of Count of Mortain
and
> lands to his (William the Conqueror)'s half brother, Robert.
>
>     Now whether Hamo and William Warlenc had children, we don't know but
> Walderne, Lord St. Clair of St. Lo (SW of Caen) had at least 4 children,
one
> of which was William the Seemly (de Santo Claro -Latin name) born at St.
Lo
> .  You just have to get use to the idea that these people had multiple
names
> that changed with circumstances, marriage, baptism, physical feats, and
> whatever language you were speaking, etc.  Look at all the names that
Rollo
> had.   Now I can't find St. Clair sur Elle on my map but assume it is
really
> close to St. Lo.
>     There were at least 3 other Saint Clairs that had towns named after
them
> besides the English St. Clair that Sur Epte was named after.  These others
> lived before Sur Epte's St. Clair.  What I don't know is:  At what date
did
> the St. Clair sur Elle take on that name?
>     Here is another thread of thought:  I think it is possible that Epte's
> St. Clair might have become a symbol in the Dukedom of a great change in
> their good fortunes.  Possibly someone's eyes improved after washing in
the
> well at sur Elle.  I think that the family could have been so associated
> with this "patron saint" that his name became more and more associated
with
> them.  So did they give their name to the town at sur Elle or was it a
> coincidence that once again they were living at another St. Clair?
>
>     I do not believe that William the Seemly (de Sancto Claro) fought at
> Hastings:  There are several good reasons.  Right now the concensus of
> opinion, including Niven, is against his involvment.   I cannot comment on
> Yolanda.  I haven't come across her before.  Perhaps Niven knows about
that.
>
> I have another theory about William the Seemly (perhaps two or three other
> unknown facts-and what must there be in Pete's office????) that will be
> aired in the March YOURS AYE quarterly.
>
>    Laurel
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: John Duguid <john.duguid@snl.co.uk>
> To: sinclair <"sinclair@mids.org"@"sinclair@mids.org">
> Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 1999 5:31 AM
> Subject: Origins of Sinclair Name in Scotland
>
>
> > Find below a discussion of the origins of the Sinclair name in Scotland,
> this
> > appeared in another list I sub scribe to. The claim the the Scottish
> Sinclairs
> > originate from  St Clair-sur-Epte is one that I have heard from other
> sources
> > whom I respect,  but it does not seem to be the one put forward by many
on
> this
> > list. Any comments from sub scribers ????
> >
> > he following comes from this week's Rampant > Scotland > newsletter
> > http://www.rampantscotland.com > --------- > Sinclair > The name is
> derived
> > from Saint-Clair-sur-Elle in > Normandy. William de Sancto Claro, whose
> father
> > had > come over with William the Conqueror in 1066, came > to Scotland
> with his
> > wife. There were, however, other > members of the St. Clair family who
> came
> > north also. > They became established near Edinburgh and were > granted
> the
> > barony of Rosslyn. Sir William de St > Clair was involved in negotiating
> the
> > marriage of  > Yolande de Dreux with King Alexander III. <snip>
> >
> > Burke's and Debrett's disagree that William, or Guillaume, was descended
> from
> > the earlier "William de Sancto Claro" who accompanied the Conqueror, or
> from
> > other Sinclairs in England who migrated north.  They claim that
Guillaume
> de
> > St. Clair belonged to the Norman Seigneurs de St. Clair-sur-Epte, a
> younger son
> > who didn't stand to inherit the family manor in Normandy.  He married a
> cousin
> > of the above-mentioned Yolande de Dreux and did play a part in her
> pre-nuptial
> > arrangements, for which he received the manor of Rosslyn from Alexander
> III of
> > Scotland around 1280.
> >
> >  best regards
> >
> > John.
> > [ This is the Sinclair family discussion list, sinclair@mids.org
> > [ To get off or on the list, see http://www.mids.org/sinclair/list.html
>
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