Re: Catherine and Hughes de Payens

["laurel" <laurel@spiritone.com>]

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There could be many levels of vasselship I would imagine.  Right off the bat
Rollo was a vassal of the King of France and all of the Dukes thereafter.
Even William the Conqueror continued to be a vassal and his kingly
descendants for generations had to submit to a certain amount of abuse from
the King of France because of this long standing arrangement.
Other off spring of Rollo could have entered into their own prediciment and
ended up as Vassals as they married into other families and took on their
indebtedness.  But that didn't take away the fact that they were still very
powerful Dukes and Kings and had large estates which they continued to add
to through marriages.
  Pg. 75 of Eleanor of Aquitaine:  In August of 1151 two of Louis's (King of
France) chief vassals outside the French domain arrived in the court to pay
their belated homage to their overlord for the lands they held of him.  As a
matter of fact, Louis had been obliged to send the Bishop of Lisieux to
remind Count Geoffrey of Anjou and Henry, Duke of Normandy (future King
Henry II of England), of the devoirs they owed their liege lord upon his
return from overseas, and even then they had shown only a feeble alacrity.
It had been for the purpose of bringing Geoffrey's domains into the jaws of
a vast pair of pincers, the Ile on one had and Pointou on the other, that
Louis the Fat had been so eager 15 years before to marry his heir to the
Duchess Eleanor.
    The Count of Anjou, Geoffrey the Fair, or Geoffrey Plantagenet, as he
was called from his custom of pluming his helmet with golden sprays of
broom, was son and heir of that Foulques who had transmigrated to be King of
Jerusalem; he was half brother to the boy king Baldwin, and lord in his own
right of those central counties of Maine and Anjou without which neither the
King of France nor the Duke of Normandy could be secure.  In his late
thirties, he was a striking figure, one of the handsomest, most lettered,
and most courtly men of his generation, and he was a very hardy knight.  In
spite of his close connections with the haute cour of Jerusalem, he had not
deemed it best, in view of the uncertainty of his own affirs, to go upon
crusade.  The Angevins were intensly practical men.  For them crusades, with
their distant fields of battle and their merely transcendental triumphs,
seemed nothing to exchange for the sold advantages of local warfare.
Geoffrey was no stranger to the court of France; nor was he stranger to the
queen (Eleanor of Aquitaine-who went on the second Crusade with King Louis
before they divorced) .....
    With Geoffrey came his son Henry Fitz-Empress, Duke of Normandy, a
personage of prime consideration in himself.  He was less important as
Geoffrey's son and heir then as the heir of his mother, Matilda Empress, to
Normandy (Matilda was the daughter of Eadgyth/Edith/Maude d/o St. Margaret
and Malcom Canmore and of Henry I of England)."

    So young Henry Plantagenet marries divorcee, Eleanor of Aquitaine, and
aquires lands vaster than the then existing kingdom of France and then takes
over as King of England but he is still the vassal of the King of France
even 250 years after the arrival of Rollo.
Laurel
of Portland

-----Original Message-----
From: John Duguid <John.Duguid@snl.co.uk>
To: owner-sinclair <owner-sinclair@zilker.net>; sinclair
<sinclair@zilker.net>
Date: Wednesday, November 18, 1998 12:51 AM
Subject: Re: Catherine and Hughes de Payens


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Someone was looking for confirmation of Catherine St. Clair's marriage to
Hughes.  On page 22 of Pete's Sinclair Symposium Narratives, it says, "The
first Grand Master was Hughes de Payens, and he was married to Catherine St.
Clair of Normandy.  They visited Rosslyn during one winter season, hosted by
tgheir distant cousin, Henry St. Clair."   If the source document that tells
about this visit could be sited, that might help this someone out.
    Many of our line of St. Clairs were called "sir"  doesn't that title
given
so early in history mean that they were Templars?  And they got married.
Laurel
Portland, OR

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The someone searching for information on this topic was me. This is the
standard story trotted out about Catherine Sinclair but I have yet  to find
contemporary evidence of the existance of Catherine sinclair far less her
marraige to Hugh de Payn. The Sir by no means indicates a connection to the
knights Templar. I have even been told by a medieval scholar that the
Sinclairs
were originally vassals in Normandy rather than powerful landowners, I am
still
waiting the charter references which will proove this statement.

So if anyone can help I am interested in evidence for the existance of
Catharine Sinclair, her marraige to Hugh de Payn and the Sinclair links to
the
knights templar.

John Duguid

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