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however after much thought I can accept it could have meant nothing more than a Normandy family background (although there were a lot of people with those......) so I still question if churches outside of Normandy (perhaps Champagne or Languedoc or what was Dauphine) had roosters and at any rate when this first appeared on the church steeples. As to the question re watermarks- I am curious for several reasons about the papermaking and the watermarks. I would like to know what exactly watermarks the Sinclairs had put on their own papers. I was drawn into this question due to someone once saying they had gone to France looking into the Dupuy/St Clair questions and then into the stories told about Bartholemew Dupuy's exit from France. Supposedly his wife was a Countess (I'll believe that when I find it-and dont really care one way or the other), but this person said she went looking for Velour or Velours France. As an artist I have used quite a lot of velour paper. Thus the quest in that direction. -Gay Dvorak [ This is the Sinclair family discussion list, sinclair@quarterman.org [ To get off or on the list, see http://sinclair.quarterman.org/list.html