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I know it is great comfort to some of our American cousins to have such words as "under God" in such public icons as the pledge of allegiance. As John has so ably shown, what may appear to us as immutable words from times so old as to be beyond memory, these same may be less old than they appear, in this case, 1954 is not very old. Notwithstanding these somewhat less than ageless words, the sentiment so expressed is also problematic at least as far as the founding fathers were concerned -- 'There shall be no established religion" is part of the deal just as "there shall be no infringement of free speech" Maybe for some, the mention of God in public utterances is no attempt at the estabishment of religion but for some other citizens who are, shall we say more secularly inclined, it certainly is. Finally, it is illogical, in a syllogistic sense to equate athiests wishing to remove God from the Pledge with the presence of violence in schools. Hope no one minds a comment outwith that magnificent Republic to the South of us. Rory in Toronto. [ This is the Sinclair family discussion list, sinclair@quarterman.org [ To get off or on the list, see http://sinclair.quarterman.org/list.html