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Greetings all; I am entering upon the Templar - Masonic discussion from the perspective of a well read and somewhat informed student of history but as well as a user of the English language. When someone asks for 'evidence' it may come in varied types and from different sources as well as being weighed very differently. For example the perspective that "Templar thought survived" requires a number of perspectives. Historical, theological, social, anthropological and archeological. Students of each of these disciplines can weigh in with a perspective. There are two premises however to appreciate. Both arise from the use of language. First what was "Templar Thought" and where did it " Originate in order for it to survive?" And there you have enough study to fill many colleges with research, of both original and secondary in nature. For those on the list that are perhaps lost, how this ties into Sinclair history in a nut shell is to appreciate that thinking of a Gnostic and non catholic tradition pervaded parts of Europe. Some of these thoughts, practices and rituals worked their way into the Templar cultural tradition and some of this thinking, philosophy and theological approaches migrated to Scotland and the best source for study just happens to inter twine with Sinclair History. The evidence sought and studied let alone available is tremendous and yet until the last ten years this aspect of our historical traditions was lost to a more standardized approach to the political and social history of Europe. Then suddenly the histories of esoteric traditions surfaced and Sinclair families ties into a significant part of it. Freemasonry is not Templar although draw from what are some Templar traditions. But we are starting to work into ideas that may have been oral, under ground or certainly private. We are looking into links with thoughts and ideas which are inter woven with ideas, thoughts and writings of the time. An idea is never static, and always being changed. So "thoughts" evolved as did people using or reflecting upon these thoughts. So evidence of ideas and thoughts is not an easy topic. I encourage those on the list to read Tim Wallace - Murphy's books as a valuable part of this historical questing. I have found them to be insightful from the perspective of history - political and social understanding. I add he has an excellent grasp on a theological appreciation of esoteric traditions that also inter wove with society. Tim is a good writer that has added to this topic quite considerably. I also encourage list subscribers to read the many books on this list, some of speculative and many contain however evidence which may not be archeological but circumstantial or logically presumed. This is not new to students of history. The very study of Christ falls into the same evidentiary problems as many other aspects of historical approaches. Josephus may be the only scholar writing on Christ and may be the only proof of existence. However the "thought" survived as did other traditions surrounding the evolution of Christianity. I urge on this topic one has to define their understanding and terms and then to argue without asserting statements of conclusion. Any one question can take volumes of written material just to start to reply to. Have fun, I am learning with all of you. Neil Sinclair Toronto/PEI/Argyll [ This is the Sinclair family discussion list, sinclair@quarterman.org [ To get off or on the list, see http://sinclair.quarterman.org/list.html