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I received this from another list today. As it relates to Catherine St Clair. Cany anyone comment on this? Regards Bruce I've come across a very useful book by Thierry Leroy entitled "Hugues de Payns, Chevalier Champenoise, foundateur de l'Ordre des Templiers" (Troyes: editions de la Maison du Boulanger, 1997). It's not a large book (165 text pages), and most of it is focused on the political backdrop to Hugues' life and the foundation of the order, but it is a valuable work in that it ties together what few verifiable facts exist about the historical Hugues de Payns taken from contemporary sources. It does give some very useful particulars on Hugues' family, particularly his wife, Elisabeth de Chappes. The first cartulary mention of her as Hugues' wife is dated 1113, and it appears that she survived him by thirty-four years, dying in 1170. So much for current cottage industry myth that gives the name of Hugues' spouse as "Catherine St. Clair". At least two children were born to Hugues and Catherine: a son, Thibaut, Abbe de Saint-Colombe de Sens, and a daughter, Isabelle, wife (1st) of Gui Bordel, and (2nd) of Laurent de Vendeuvre. The seigneurie of Payns was inherited by Isabelle and her husband Gui following her father's death in 1136. Another individual called Gibouin, "Vicomte" de Payns, may have been a child of Hugues and Elisabeth, although the author theorizes that this individual was probably not related to the family, but was an appointee of Count Henri of Champagne, as his tenure as "vicomte" of an area including, but not limited to the "seigneurie" of Payns, coincided with Isabelle's ownership of the actual chateau and farmlands. Also of note is an entry dated 1244 of a gift given to a man named Perrin by Marie, Dame de Payns, witnessed by her uncle and guardian, the chevalier Pierre de l'Orme... [ This is the Sinclair family discussion list, sinclair@quarterman.org [ To get off or on the list, see http://sinclair.quarterman.org/list.html