> > >Flanders and Picardy were never part
of the Norman domain they were > >Burgandian, Hapsburg and Frankish
where would William get Flemish troops? > > > >Douglas is a
well known name the Black Douglases in 1449 and his band of > >tratiors
stain the pages of Scots history the King James II had to almost >
>elimate them to regain the Kingdom. James Douglas the Earl of Morton
wared > >aginst the crown until 1572 in civil war. King James V
in his minority was > >held under duress by Archibald Douglas.
They are many other instances of the > >pages of history being smeared
with Douglas treachery. > > Douglas was a Galloway family.
Malcolm III was the first King of Scots > to make Galloway more or less
part of the kingdom. Galloway was the wild > west of Scotland in the
times of Malcolm III, David I, and up through those > of Robert the
Bruce. The Black Douglas was best known for raiding the north > of
England, which caused mothers to teach their children a rhyme about >
behaving or the Black Douglas would get you.
Incorrect see Fueds,Forays and Rebellions John L
Roberts Edinburgh University Press 1999
Douglas is best know as a traitor see
History of the Western Highlands and Isle D. Gergory Edinburgh 1881 2
edition The Scottish Highlands a Short History, c300-1746 D.
Mitchell Edinburgh 1957 > > One reason for the Bruce family being granted land in
Annandale was to help > contain the wild lands of Galloway. However,
as everyone knows Sir James > Douglas was one of the Bruce's main
lieutenants (see Barbour's Brus, > http://www.arts.gla.ac.uk/www/english/comet/starn/poetry/brus/contents.htm >
A poets view not History > ), and in the famous
incident of > the attempt to carry Bruce's heart to the Holy Land it was
Sir James Douglas, > Sir Robert Logan and Sir William Keith who fought at
Teba with William and > John Sinclair. > > As for the origin
of the Douglas name, in what I quoted previously I was > quoting from
scotclans, as I said; I know nothing more about it than that. >
See: > http://www.scotclans.com/clans/douglas.htm >
See also: > http://www.chebucto.ns.ca/Heritage/FSCNS/Scots_NS/Clans/Douglas.html >
see Scottish Family History M. Stuart Edinburgh
1930 > Incidentally, citing and preserving sources is
something we all would > do well to do better. > > Please
note that I take no issue with John Duguid's version; I have no > Gaelic
and he as a Scot in Scotland should know a lot better than me > about
Gaelic name derivations.
Douglas is not a Highland clan and as such would
not share the "Irish tounge" I am a Scot with lands in Aberdeenshire so
what > > >Sinclair stood with William, David,
Malcom, Alexander the Bruce and in > >Dunbar for King and country
against Cromwell. After the Act of Union we > >were loyal to our King.
Archibald, first Viscount Thurso, was George VI > >Minster of Air in
WWII. > > > >No page of history speaks of Sinclair as
traitors. > > > >Sinclair > > Probably so,
although there were plenty of instances of Sinclairs failing > to win the
day, as at Altimarlach, and as when Oliver Sinclair lost one > against the
English (I know some people on this list know that latter story; > does
somebody want to tell it?).
Failing to win the day as Oliver at Solway Moss
did is a hell of a lot different than being a tratior >
> There was one good Douglas poet, though. Was there ever a
Sinclair poet? :-) > > Somewhat more seriously, if we want the
Sinclair story to be told, maybe > that's what we need; a few Sinclair
poets. I don't mean in verse, I mean > a few good storytellers with
some well-honed stories to tell. Pete Cummings > may have been such
a one, with his tight focus on Prince Henry Sinclair. > There seems to be
interest now in the even wider 1200 year history > of the Sinclair
family. Who will distill that story? > > Refined and
carefully-researched versions are good. As I said recently, > a true
story is usually even better than a trite story. > > However,
please don't expect this list to be where you find the distilled > story
and only that. As Laurel has put it, in the list we try to stir up >
information. This is a discussion list; it will be confusing at
times, > and it is *supposed* to have many people going in different
directions. > Here we mine the ore and mount some expeditions. In
the paper newsletters > I would hope to see some refined metal and maybe
even some well-wrought > trumpets for playing fine tunes about the results
of these and other > expeditions. No doubt there will be more books,
as well. Not to mention > presentations at games, and videos, and
television, and of course many > web pages. > > I don't agree
about too many people, however. Many hands make light work. > We
have 1200 years of story to tell; that's almost 50 generations, and >
across much of Europe and the rest of the world. That's a lot of
stories > within the story to tell, and they will need a lot of story
tellers. > The more the merrier. > > In addition to the fine
tunes and well-told stories for the public, there > are also plenty of
veins of ore that need careful sifting and academic > discussion.
There is probably a Ph.D. thesis for somebody in the Argyll > work that
Rory and Juli and Karen have started, for example. > > Concerning
the web pages, > http://www.mids.org/sinclair/ > I
think I will put up some disclaimers that most of what you see there > is
work in progress, not the final word, and if you want to see how it >
comes out, you should join the list and join a clan organization. >
> And as for only recent environment or recent heredity determining
who > you are, I don't think that is all there is to it. My
experience with > genealogy thus far (see, for example, www.quarterman.org) is that like >
people tend to group together across generations. Your remote
ancestors > may very well be more like you than your neighbors. >
> And it's not entirely a matter of relation, either. Ancestry
provides > a thread with which to follow the course of history.
Malcolm Canmore > was just another historical figure to me until I
realized that he was > *the* King of Scots who first established the
Sinclairs in Scotland. > Similarly, I knew who Margaret was, more or less,
but she became a lot > more interesting when I realized that William the
Seemly was associated > with her. Personally, I'm always looking for
traces of another Norman > family, and the more I know about the early
Normans, the more likely > I will find them. > > Why examine
history at all? Well, I can tell you that in my present > occupation
I do take heart from the story of Bruce and the spider. > And the battle
of Roslin as an example of use of the materials at hand > and just-in-time
reinforcement is also quite instructive. > > So I suggest that the
Sinclair clan organizations mine the copious > ore that is being turned up
in the chaotic discussions on this list > and elsewhere, and produce some
fine trumpets and well-told tales for > presentation to the rest of the
world. Many willing hands and voices > have been raised here in the
list. The clan organizations have already > called on some of them,
and there are others still raised. > > John S. Quarterman <jsq@mids.org> > PS: I have no Douglas
relations, as far as I know. I do have Flemish > ancestors, through
a much different route. > [ This is the Sinclair family discussion list,
sinclair@jump.net. > [ To get off
or on the list, see http://www.mids.org/sinclair/list.html