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9 St. Clairs at Hastings
Dear Dorothy,
This is a very complex subject and answer. Hopefully more records will
be found to fill in the missing pieces.
I will try my best then probably others will add their thoughts too.
There probably were enough St. Clairs to make up the 9 at Hastings and
not include William the Seemly. This list depends upon the intrepretation
of whether
(1) Duke William the Conqueror was included in the 9-this could happen if
the person making the statement was a Sinclair and trying hard to show a
close connection to the Duke by linking him to the other branch of the
family by including him in the nine.
(2) Morrison includes uncle Hamo as one of the 9 at Hastings so we are
including uncles.
(3) how far did +ACI-cousins+ACI- extend?
(4) How accurate was the statement when it was written down maybe 200 years
after Hastings? Morrison was wrong about Hamo, Sr. and Walderne being at
Hastings. So if he were counting Walderne, the number in the statement is
wrong or maybe the statement included other cousins that we don't know about
to make up for Walderne and William the Seemly. He also confused the two
Maugers, making the wrong one Archbishop of Rouen. If you take into
consideration these problems, this statement then becomes an inaccurate
gauge of whether William the Seemly was at Hastings.
.
If you strictly count as St. Clair cousins only those descended through
Walderne who married Helen or Margaret (as Morrison calls her- and Niven
thinks she would have been a +ACI-natural daughter+ACI- of Duke Richard II) then
you only have 4 sons for Walderne, Lord of St. Clair, only 4 strickly
speaking St. Clair 1st cousins. Even then if you interpret this +ACI-9 with
Duke William+ACI- you would then have just 5.
So the relationship has to be expanded to mean the descendants of Walderne's
father, Maugar/Malgar. So far I have not come across a title of Count or
Lord of St. Clair for Maugar but he had a castle or land near St.
Clair-sur-Elle so he and his offspring could all be labeled St. Clair.
Then we will have to include the 2nd cousins to William the Conqueror and go
back another generation to pick up these St. Clair second cousins and
uncles. Here are the people that Morrison says were at Hastings marked
with +ACo-
So going Back a generation to Mauger, Count of Mortain and Corbeil, who had
4 sons:
(1)Hamo, Count of Corbeil (killed 1047so was not at Hastings) had sons:
+ACo-Hamo Jr. and Robert (Robert not listed at Hastings by Morrison but where
was he-surely he was old enough and was a warrior type , received lands in
Rye, England from Wm. the Conq. can he be discounted?)
(2) Walderne (killed 1047 so not at Hastings) had +ACo-Richard, +ACo-Britel, William
the Seemly (Morrison says William the Seemly was at Hastings. See reasons
below for possibly excluding him) Keep remembering that it was Walderne's
marriage to Margaret/Helen (+ACI-natural+ACI- aunt of William the Conqueror) that
connected these two branches and made Walderne's children 1/2-first cousins
to William the Conqueror. Walderne's 3 brother's would have been Duke
William's uncles but not connected by blood until you get back to Duke
Richard I.
(3) William the Warling-little known about him but he could have had sons at
Hastings (although they might have been pretty fed up with the Duke for
taking away their lands and titles in 1055-56 inherited when Hamo and
Walderne died in 1047. It is probably this William-and others- carried on a
verbal smear campaign against the Duke's illegitimacy. They claimed he
should be ineligible for the Dukedom and their family should carry on the
Ducal line)
(4) +ACo-Hubert (uncle by marriage, to Duke Wm.-thought to have had a different
mother than Hamo, Walderne, and William because he and his offspring
supported Duke William so strongly despite the fact that the Duke and King's
army killed his brothers/half-brothers Hamo and Walderne and Duke William
took away the title and lands of Mortain from William the Warling and gave
them to the Duke's 1/2 brother Robert), Sons of Uncle Hubert: +ACo-Radulph,
+ACo-Hubert, +ACo-Adam, +ACo-Endo
So counting the +ACo- you come up with 7 known cousins and second cousins for
Duke William. Hamo Jr.,
Richard, Britel, Radulph, Hubert, Adam, and Endo. Then add Uncle Hubert and
Wm. the Conqueror and you have 9.
Duke William had other relatives at Hastings, Robert, Count of Eu was an
uncle once removed. William count of Evreaux was a cousin once removed.
Richard +ACI-fitz-Gilbert' of Tonbridge and Clare was a cousin once removed.
Do you think that since he was +ACI-of Clare+ACI- that he could be counted as a St.
Clare at Hastings also?
Reasons why William the Seemly might not have been at Hastings:
The army of King Henri I of France came to support young Duke William's
claim on Normandy. In the battle of Val-es-Dunes 1047, William S's father,
Waderne and uncle Hamo were killed as they tried either to support another
contender or support their own claim on the Dukedom. Wm. S. would have
been about 19 then. It is possible he left the area with his uncle William
the Warling for Apulia or Sicily. Or did he go then to safety with his
father's cousin, King Edward the Confessor, in England.
The legend of the Sinclairs seems to pick him up at Edward's court around
1056-7. By then he would have been 29. Had he married by then? Was there
a family in Normandy or England?? But the Sinclair legend is that he went
with the delegation to Hungary to bring back Athling Edward the Exile and
his family. It is quite possible that he went as one of King Edward's
representatives or designated to be Cup Bearer to Edward the Exile, if not
that, to have some sort of pledge of protection over the monarchy that he
and his son, Edgar, represented.
I am trying to show a close connection to Edward the Confessor who welcomed
and took care of political refugees such as Malcolm Canmore who was there at
the very same time. It is possible that even back in Normandy Edward and
Wm. S. could have formed an alliance. Edward was there until 1042 as an
exile also. Being a pious man, he would have been very uncomfortable around
Duke William's father, Robert the Devil. Things might have been more
peaceful over at uncle Mauger's castle at St. Lo. So I see a probable bond
between William the Seemly with King Edward, the Athling monarchy and
Malcolm Canmore that would have prevented him from helping Duke William at
Hastings.
Laurel
----- Original Message -----
From: +ACI-dgiff245+ACI- +ADw-dgiff245+AEA-home.com+AD4-
To: +ADw-sinclair+AEA-matrix.net+AD4-
Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2000 6:52 AM
Subject: Re: Sinclair Dates
+AD4- Is the names of the 9 Sinclairs that were with William known?
+AD4- Dorothy
+AD4-
+AD4- ----- Original Message -----
+AD4- From: +ACI-John S. Quarterman+ACI- +ADw-jsq+AEA-matrix.net+AD4-
+AD4- To: +ADw-sinclair+AEA-matrix.net+AD4-
+AD4- Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2000 3:05 AM
+AD4- Subject: Sinclair Dates
+AD4-
+AD4-
+AD4- +AD4-
+AD4- +AD4- +AFs-1+AF0-Sinclair Dates: September 28.
+AD4- +AD4- In 1698: Darien fleet in West Indies., First landfall in the West
+AD4- +AD4- Indies.
+AD4- +AD4- In 1066: William invades England, William the Bastard, Duke of
+AD4- +AD4- Normandy, +AFs-2+AF0-arrives in England. +AFs-3+AF0-Nine Sinclairs are with him. .
+AD4- +AD4-
+AD4- +AD4- References
+AD4- +AD4-
+AD4- +AD4- 1. http://www.mids.org/sinclair/timeline.html
+AD4- +AD4- 2. http://members.tripod.com/+AH4-Battle+AF8-of+AF8-Hastings/William+AF8-Invades.html
+AD4- +AD4- 3. http://www.mids.org/sinclair/battleofhastings.html
+AD4- +AD4- +AFs- This is the Sinclair family discussion list, sinclair+AEA-mids.org
+AD4- +AD4- +AFs- To get off or on the list, see http://www.mids.org/sinclair/list.html
+AD4-
+AD4- +AFs- This is the Sinclair family discussion list, sinclair+AEA-mids.org
+AD4- +AFs- To get off or on the list, see http://www.mids.org/sinclair/list.html
[ This is the Sinclair family discussion list, sinclair@mids.org
[ To get off or on the list, see http://www.mids.org/sinclair/list.html