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Re: Blow the Trumpet loudly. Louder
I take umbrage with some of your points I have
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, June 27, 1999 5:56 PM
Subject: Re: Blow the Trumpet loudly.
> >Flanders and Picardy were never part
of the Norman domain they were
> >Burgandian, Hapsburg and Frankish
where would William get Flemish troops?
> >Douglas is a
well known name the Black Douglases in 1449 and his band of
stain the pages of Scots history the King James II had to almost
>elimate them to regain the Kingdom. James Douglas the Earl of Morton
> >aginst the crown until 1572 in civil war. King James V
in his minority was
> >held under duress by Archibald Douglas.
They are many other instances of the
> >pages of history being smeared
with Douglas treachery.
> Douglas was a Galloway family.
Malcolm III was the first King of Scots
> to make Galloway more or less
part of the kingdom. Galloway was the wild
> west of Scotland in the
times of Malcolm III, David I, and up through those
> of Robert the
Bruce. The Black Douglas was best known for raiding the north
England, which caused mothers to teach their children a rhyme about
behaving or the Black Douglas would get you.
Incorrect see Fueds,Forays and Rebellions John L
Roberts Edinburgh University Press 1999
Douglas is best know as a traitor see
History of the Western Highlands and Isle D. Gergory Edinburgh 1881 2
edition The Scottish Highlands a Short History, c300-1746 D.
Mitchell Edinburgh 1957
> One reason for the Bruce family being granted land in
Annandale was to help
> contain the wild lands of Galloway. However,
as everyone knows Sir James
> Douglas was one of the Bruce's main
lieutenants (see Barbour's Brus,
A poets view not History
> ), and in the famous
> the attempt to carry Bruce's heart to the Holy Land it was
Sir James Douglas,
> Sir Robert Logan and Sir William Keith who fought at
Teba with William and
> John Sinclair.
> As for the origin
of the Douglas name, in what I quoted previously I was
> quoting from
scotclans, as I said; I know nothing more about it than that.
see Scottish Family History M. Stuart Edinburgh
> Incidentally, citing and preserving sources is
something we all would
> do well to do better.
note that I take no issue with John Duguid's version; I have no
and he as a Scot in Scotland should know a lot better than me
Gaelic name derivations.
Douglas is not a Highland clan and as such would
not share the "Irish tounge" I am a Scot with lands in Aberdeenshire so
> >Sinclair stood with William, David,
Malcom, Alexander the Bruce and in
> >Dunbar for King and country
against Cromwell. After the Act of Union we
> >were loyal to our King.
Archibald, first Viscount Thurso, was George VI
> >Minster of Air in
> >No page of history speaks of Sinclair as
> Probably so,
although there were plenty of instances of Sinclairs failing
> to win the
day, as at Altimarlach, and as when Oliver Sinclair lost one
> against the
English (I know some people on this list know that latter story;
somebody want to tell it?).
Failing to win the day as Oliver at Solway Moss
did is a hell of a lot different than being a tratior
> There was one good Douglas poet, though. Was there ever a
Sinclair poet? :-)
> Somewhat more seriously, if we want the
Sinclair story to be told, maybe
> that's what we need; a few Sinclair
poets. I don't mean in verse, I mean
> a few good storytellers with
some well-honed stories to tell. Pete Cummings
> may have been such
a one, with his tight focus on Prince Henry Sinclair.
> There seems to be
interest now in the even wider 1200 year history
> of the Sinclair
family. Who will distill that story?
> Refined and
carefully-researched versions are good. As I said recently,
> a true
story is usually even better than a trite story.
please don't expect this list to be where you find the distilled
and only that. As Laurel has put it, in the list we try to stir up
information. This is a discussion list; it will be confusing at
> and it is *supposed* to have many people going in different
> Here we mine the ore and mount some expeditions. In
the paper newsletters
> I would hope to see some refined metal and maybe
even some well-wrought
> trumpets for playing fine tunes about the results
of these and other
> expeditions. No doubt there will be more books,
as well. Not to mention
> presentations at games, and videos, and
television, and of course many
> web pages.
> I don't agree
about too many people, however. Many hands make light work.
have 1200 years of story to tell; that's almost 50 generations, and
across much of Europe and the rest of the world. That's a lot of
> within the story to tell, and they will need a lot of story
> The more the merrier.
> In addition to the fine
tunes and well-told stories for the public, there
> are also plenty of
veins of ore that need careful sifting and academic
There is probably a Ph.D. thesis for somebody in the Argyll
> work that
Rory and Juli and Karen have started, for example.
the web pages,
think I will put up some disclaimers that most of what you see there
work in progress, not the final word, and if you want to see how it
comes out, you should join the list and join a clan organization.
> And as for only recent environment or recent heredity determining
> you are, I don't think that is all there is to it. My
> genealogy thus far (see, for example, www.quarterman.org) is that like
people tend to group together across generations. Your remote
> may very well be more like you than your neighbors.
> And it's not entirely a matter of relation, either. Ancestry
> a thread with which to follow the course of history.
> was just another historical figure to me until I
realized that he was
> *the* King of Scots who first established the
Sinclairs in Scotland.
> Similarly, I knew who Margaret was, more or less,
but she became a lot
> more interesting when I realized that William the
Seemly was associated
> with her. Personally, I'm always looking for
traces of another Norman
> family, and the more I know about the early
Normans, the more likely
> I will find them.
> Why examine
history at all? Well, I can tell you that in my present
I do take heart from the story of Bruce and the spider.
> And the battle
of Roslin as an example of use of the materials at hand
> and just-in-time
reinforcement is also quite instructive.
> So I suggest that the
Sinclair clan organizations mine the copious
> ore that is being turned up
in the chaotic discussions on this list
> and elsewhere, and produce some
fine trumpets and well-told tales for
> presentation to the rest of the
world. Many willing hands and voices
> have been raised here in the
list. The clan organizations have already
> called on some of them,
and there are others still raised.
> John S. Quarterman <email@example.com>
> PS: I have no Douglas
relations, as far as I know. I do have Flemish
> ancestors, through
a much different route.
> [ This is the Sinclair family discussion list,
> [ To get off
or on the list, see http://www.mids.org/sinclair/list.html