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Re: Blow the Trumpet loudly. Louder

I take umbrage with some of your points I have internoted them
----- Original Message -----
From: John S. Quarterman <jsq@mids.org>
To: <sinclair@jump.net>
Sent: Sunday, June 27, 1999 5:56 PM
Subject: Re: Blow the Trumpet loudly.

> >Flanders  and Picardy were never part of the Norman domain they were
> >Burgandian, Hapsburg and Frankish where would William get Flemish troops?
> >
> >Douglas is a well known name the Black Douglases in 1449 and his band of
> >tratiors stain the pages of Scots history the King James II had to almost
> >elimate them to regain the Kingdom. James Douglas the Earl of Morton wared
> >aginst the crown until 1572 in civil war.  King James V in his minority  was
> >held under duress by Archibald Douglas. They are many other instances of the
> >pages of history being smeared with Douglas treachery.
> Douglas was a Galloway family.  Malcolm III was the first King of Scots
> to make Galloway more or less part of the kingdom.  Galloway was the wild
> west of Scotland in the times of Malcolm III, David I, and up through those
> of Robert the Bruce.  The Black Douglas was best known for raiding the north
> of England, which caused mothers to teach their children a rhyme about
> behaving or the Black Douglas would get you.
Incorrect see Fueds,Forays and Rebellions John L Roberts Edinburgh University Press 1999
Douglas is best know as a traitor see History of the Western Highlands and Isle D. Gergory Edinburgh 1881 2 edition The Scottish Highlands a Short History, c300-1746 D. Mitchell Edinburgh 1957
> One reason for the Bruce family being granted land in Annandale was to help
> contain the wild lands of Galloway.  However, as everyone knows Sir James
> Douglas was one of the Bruce's main lieutenants (see Barbour's Brus,
>   http://www.arts.gla.ac.uk/www/english/comet/starn/poetry/brus/contents.htm
> A poets view not History
> ), and in the famous incident of
> the attempt to carry Bruce's heart to the Holy Land it was Sir James Douglas,
> Sir Robert Logan and Sir William Keith who fought at Teba with William and
> John Sinclair.
> As for the origin of the Douglas name, in what I quoted previously I was
> quoting from scotclans, as I said; I know nothing more about it than that.
> See:
>  http://www.scotclans.com/clans/douglas.htm
> See also:
>  http://www.chebucto.ns.ca/Heritage/FSCNS/Scots_NS/Clans/Douglas.html
see Scottish Family History M. Stuart Edinburgh 1930
> Incidentally, citing and preserving sources is something we all would
> do well to do better.
> Please note that I take no issue with John Duguid's version; I have no
> Gaelic and he as a Scot in Scotland should know a lot better than me
> about Gaelic name derivations.
Douglas is not a Highland clan and as such would not share the "Irish tounge" I am a Scot with lands in Aberdeenshire so what
> >Sinclair stood with William, David, Malcom, Alexander the Bruce and in
> >Dunbar for King and country  against Cromwell. After the Act of Union we
> >were loyal to our King. Archibald, first Viscount Thurso, was George VI
> >Minster of Air in WWII.
> >
> >No page of history speaks of Sinclair as traitors.
> >
> >Sinclair
> Probably so, although there were plenty of instances of Sinclairs failing
> to win the day, as at Altimarlach, and as when Oliver Sinclair lost one
> against the English (I know some people on this list know that latter story;
> does somebody want to tell it?).
Failing to win the day as Oliver at Solway Moss did is a hell of a lot different than being a tratior
> There was one good Douglas poet, though.  Was there ever a Sinclair poet? :-)
> Somewhat more seriously, if we want the Sinclair story to be told, maybe
> that's what we need; a few Sinclair poets.  I don't mean in verse, I mean
> a few good storytellers with some well-honed stories to tell.  Pete Cummings
> may have been such a one, with his tight focus on Prince Henry Sinclair.
> There seems to be interest now in the even wider 1200 year history
> of the Sinclair family.  Who will distill that story?
> Refined and carefully-researched versions are good.  As I said recently,
> a true story is usually even better than a trite story.
> However, please don't expect this list to be where you find the distilled
> story and only that.  As Laurel has put it, in the list we try to stir up
> information.  This is a discussion list; it will be confusing at times,
> and it is *supposed* to have many people going in different directions.
> Here we mine the ore and mount some expeditions.  In the paper newsletters
> I would hope to see some refined metal and maybe even some well-wrought
> trumpets for playing fine tunes about the results of these and other
> expeditions.  No doubt there will be more books, as well.  Not to mention
> presentations at games, and videos, and television, and of course many
> web pages.
> I don't agree about too many people, however.  Many hands make light work.
> We have 1200 years of story to tell; that's almost 50 generations, and
> across much of Europe and the rest of the world.  That's a lot of stories
> within the story to tell, and they will need a lot of story tellers.
> The more the merrier.
> In addition to the fine tunes and well-told stories for the public, there
> are also plenty of veins of ore that need careful sifting and academic
> discussion.  There is probably a Ph.D. thesis for somebody in the Argyll
> work that Rory and Juli and Karen have started, for example.
> Concerning the web pages,
>  http://www.mids.org/sinclair/
> I think I will put up some disclaimers that most of what you see there
> is work in progress, not the final word, and if you want to see how it
> comes out, you should join the list and join a clan organization.
> And as for only recent environment or recent heredity determining who
> you are, I don't think that is all there is to it.  My experience with
> genealogy thus far (see, for example, www.quarterman.org) is that like
> people tend to group together across generations.  Your remote ancestors
> may very well be more like you than your neighbors.
> And it's not entirely a matter of relation, either.  Ancestry provides
> a thread with which to follow the course of history.  Malcolm Canmore
> was just another historical figure to me until I realized that he was
> *the* King of Scots who first established the Sinclairs in Scotland.
> Similarly, I knew who Margaret was, more or less, but she became a lot
> more interesting when I realized that William the Seemly was associated
> with her.  Personally, I'm always looking for traces of another Norman
> family, and the more I know about the early Normans, the more likely
> I will find them.
> Why examine history at all?  Well, I can tell you that in my present
> occupation I do take heart from the story of Bruce and the spider.
> And the battle of Roslin as an example of use of the materials at hand
> and just-in-time reinforcement is also quite instructive.
> So I suggest that the Sinclair clan organizations mine the copious
> ore that is being turned up in the chaotic discussions on this list
> and elsewhere, and produce some fine trumpets and well-told tales for
> presentation to the rest of the world.  Many willing hands and voices
> have been raised here in the list.  The clan organizations have already
> called on some of them, and there are others still raised.
> John S. Quarterman <jsq@mids.org>
> PS: I have no Douglas relations, as far as I know.  I do have Flemish
> ancestors, through a much different route.
> [ This is the Sinclair family discussion list, sinclair@jump.net.
> [ To get off or on the list, see http://www.mids.org/sinclair/list.html